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 Pick Another Place, Please. 
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 Post subject: Pick Another Place, Please.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:41 am 
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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


The current discussion about the building of a mosque near "ground zero" in lower Manhattan has me a bit confused. Nearly all of the discussion has to do with the First Amendment of the Constitution, quoted above.

I am not a lawyer. I have not studied the Constitution at a prestigious university on our East Coast. I did, however, once be intimate with a local female barrister at a well-known national chain motel. Which experience might have made me the wiser I cannot determine.

I do suspect that our government, on a wide variety of levels, would be interested, and would become involved with, a religion that might espouse and practice -

• Cannibalism;
• Torture and non-humane slaughter of animals (anti-Kashrut);
• Revival of ancient Aztec rituals of human sacrifice;
• Marriage of prepubescent children to adults.

That list could go on and on. I also believe that governments have an interest in, and do actively regulate, the materials and design of church buildings. I am sure that churches have a duty to put up "exit" signs just as do secular buildings. Plumbing and electrical work are subject to inspection.

Now, the matter in Manhattan has everything to do with "sensitivities" and nothing about plumbing. That I readily acknowlege. However, a prohibition regarding the playing of bells from a church steeple at 225 db 24 times a day would also be directly related to the "sensitivities" of the neighbors. I believe that such a practice would be either prohibited or regulated.

Why the bleatings from the mayor of New York and from our muslim-born president? Is there anyone here that believes this to be appeasement? I certainly do, and I do not like it one bit.

End of rant.


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 Post subject: Re: Pick Another Place, Please.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:56 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Pick Another Place, Please.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 11:39 am 
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Traveler wrote:
Quote:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


The current discussion about the building of a mosque near "ground zero" in lower Manhattan has me a bit confused. Nearly all of the discussion has to do with the First Amendment of the Constitution, quoted above.

I am not a lawyer. I have not studied the Constitution at a prestigious university on our East Coast. I did, however, once be intimate with a local female barrister at a well-known national chain motel. Which experience might have made me the wiser I cannot determine.

I do suspect that our government, on a wide variety of levels, would be interested, and would become involved with, a religion that might espouse and practice -

• Cannibalism;
• Torture and non-humane slaughter of animals (anti-Kashrut);
• Revival of ancient Aztec rituals of human sacrifice;
• Marriage of prepubescent children to adults.

That list could go on and on. I also believe that governments have an interest in, and do actively regulate, the materials and design of church buildings. I am sure that churches have a duty to put up "exit" signs just as do secular buildings. Plumbing and electrical work are subject to inspection.

Now, the matter in Manhattan has everything to do with "sensitivities" and nothing about plumbing. That I readily acknowlege. However, a prohibition regarding the playing of bells from a church steeple at 225 db 24 times a day would also be directly related to the "sensitivities" of the neighbors. I believe that such a practice would be either prohibited or regulated.

Why the bleatings from the mayor of New York and from our muslim-born president? Is there anyone here that believes this to be appeasement? I certainly do, and I do not like it one bit.

End of rant.
Well, since this is the NGFF zone.

I'm personally opposed to the notion of building a mosque there; I feel about it roughly the way I felt about the nuns who wanted to build a convent next to Auschwitz (and, after some words from above -- the Vatican, I presume, not the Trinity -- decided that it was best to do it a few miles away). Every right to do so; not right to do so.

So much for that.

As to whether or not Obama was born a muslim depends on one's view of such things. In the muslim tradition, religion is inherited from the father, and, if the father is a muslim, there's no opting out.

But I don't abide by the muslim tradition. In the Jewish tradition, the mother's religion determines whether or not the baby is Jewish (whether or not a child born to a Christian mother and a muslim father, say, is a muslim, a Christian, or neither is something that's Not Our Business); I do abide by that.

In the American tradition, religion is, more or less, a choice. I don't know of any time that Obama chose to become a muslim, as child or adult; in fact, he picked what is in my opinion a particularly noxious Christian church, which he later left.

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 Post subject: Re: Pick Another Place, Please.
PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:52 am 
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joelr wrote:
In the American tradition, religion is, more or less, a choice. I don't know of any time that Obama chose to become a muslim, as child or adult; in fact, he picked what is in my opinion a particularly noxious Christian church, which he later left.


Obama is about as Muslim as I am. (For those that don't know me, I'm a North Minneapolis Lutheran.)

As far as the mosque, bad place, IMHO. Not because government should restrict it. (BTW, Traveler, aren't you the same guy in another thread I just read complaining about government restrictions? Just checking.) No, bad place for their own PR. Better to move it a few blocks away and not give the ultra-right-wing, Muslims-bad-Christians-good, Obama's-a-Muslim-who's-out-to-turn-America-over-to-the-imams BS-spewing crowd something more to kvetch about.

Now for the question- no, I don't believe it to be "appeasement"; simply, appeasement in this case is used to mean "placating one's enemies", ala Neville Chamberlain. As I do not see the mosque in question as America's enemies, barring evidence to the contrary, then appeasement is simply not occurring.*

*Unless we're proceeding from the theory that all Muslims are, by definition, enemies of the state. At which point, no discussion is possible with those professing such ignorance.

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 Post subject: Re: Pick Another Place, Please.
PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:03 pm 
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I am not quite sure how another post on this site, in which I acknowledge that government regulations are necessary (but question how intrustive they need to be) applies here. Possibly the issue is with me, and not the point I made. I would hope not. That would tend to cloud the issue, and to bring in a straw man of sorts.

As Joel so kindly pointed out, in the esteemed traditions of the Muslim religion, the father's religion dictates what is considered the defacto religion of the offspring. Combined with the fact that part of the schooling our president received in Indonesia was in a muslim school, I question his objectivity in making his observations regarding building a mosque close to ground zero. I believe I am free to raise that as a legitimate question.

I am sure that there is no shortage of people, even in New York, that understand that great numbers of mosques have been built on sites that previously held temples and churches of other denominations. That practice is widely recognized as demonstrating that a conquest had been made. That, to me, might tend to irritate the sensitivities of those who lost loved ones in the 9-11 "incident". If governments are able to regulate religious structures through zoning and other means, and if some of those are based on sensitivity, such as light, sound, and other things that may cause disruption, then I believe it is possible to restrict what is built around "ground zero".


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 Post subject: Re: Pick Another Place, Please.
PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 3:38 pm 
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Traveler wrote:
I am not quite sure how another post on this site, in which I acknowledge that government regulations are necessary (but question how intrustive they need to be) applies here. Possibly the issue is with me, and not the point I made. I would hope not. That would tend to cloud the issue, and to bring in a straw man of sorts.


It merely serves to illustrate what I see as a bit of hypocrisy- the idea that government regulation is bad, unless it prohibits something I have a problem with. If you, personally, don't espouse this, then it wasn't aimed at you, personally.

Traveler wrote:
As Joel so kindly pointed out, in the esteemed traditions of the Muslim religion, the father's religion dictates what is considered the defacto religion of the offspring. Combined with the fact that part of the schooling our president received in Indonesia was in a muslim school, I question his objectivity in making his observations regarding building a mosque close to ground zero. I believe I am free to raise that as a legitimate question.


Everyone's got a right to be incorrect, yes. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Pick Another Place, Please.
PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 6:26 pm 
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Jeremiah wrote:
Traveler wrote:
I am not quite sure how another post on this site, in which I acknowledge that government regulations are necessary (but question how intrustive they need to be) applies here. Possibly the issue is with me, and not the point I made. I would hope not. That would tend to cloud the issue, and to bring in a straw man of sorts.


It merely serves to illustrate what I see as a bit of hypocrisy- the idea that government regulation is bad, unless it prohibits something I have a problem with. If you, personally, don't espouse this, then it wasn't aimed at you, personally.

Traveler wrote:
As Joel so kindly pointed out, in the esteemed traditions of the Muslim religion, the father's religion dictates what is considered the defacto religion of the offspring. Combined with the fact that part of the schooling our president received in Indonesia was in a muslim school, I question his objectivity in making his observations regarding building a mosque close to ground zero. I believe I am free to raise that as a legitimate question.


Everyone's got a right to be incorrect, yes. :D


Once again, this seems to be all about me and not about the subject. I do not know if that is to simply deflect dealing with the question with facts and reason, or if it is merely a personal issue. Interesting.


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 Post subject: Re: Pick Another Place, Please.
PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:17 pm 
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Jeremiah wrote:
No, bad place for their own PR. Better to move it a few blocks away

A few blocks away from what?


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 Post subject: Re: Pick Another Place, Please.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 2:37 pm 
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SethB wrote:
Jeremiah wrote:
No, bad place for their own PR. Better to move it a few blocks away

A few blocks away from what?


The "ground zero" area was what I meant. Although I realize that to some folks, that would include most of Manhattan.

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 Post subject: Re: Pick Another Place, Please.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 2:38 pm 
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Traveler wrote:
Jeremiah wrote:
Traveler wrote:
I am not quite sure how another post on this site, in which I acknowledge that government regulations are necessary (but question how intrustive they need to be) applies here. Possibly the issue is with me, and not the point I made. I would hope not. That would tend to cloud the issue, and to bring in a straw man of sorts.


It merely serves to illustrate what I see as a bit of hypocrisy- the idea that government regulation is bad, unless it prohibits something I have a problem with. If you, personally, don't espouse this, then it wasn't aimed at you, personally.

Traveler wrote:
As Joel so kindly pointed out, in the esteemed traditions of the Muslim religion, the father's religion dictates what is considered the defacto religion of the offspring. Combined with the fact that part of the schooling our president received in Indonesia was in a muslim school, I question his objectivity in making his observations regarding building a mosque close to ground zero. I believe I am free to raise that as a legitimate question.


Everyone's got a right to be incorrect, yes. :D


Once again, this seems to be all about me and not about the subject. I do not know if that is to simply deflect dealing with the question with facts and reason, or if it is merely a personal issue. Interesting.


Not about you at all. Your contention is that the President and the courts are biased towards Muslims. Evidence?

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 Post subject: Re: Pick Another Place, Please.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 2:43 pm 
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For it not being personal, there sure are a lot of "your" and "you" being used.

I do not have to justify an opinion. It is simply that, my opinion. Opinions are neither right or wrong. They are opinions.

Quote:
o·pin·ion   /əˈpɪnyən/ [uh-pin-yuhn]
–noun
1. a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.
2. a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.


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 Post subject: Re: Pick Another Place, Please.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 2:47 pm 
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If it can't be debated, don't stick it out there.

Nice graphic, BTW. I lost all respect for the Nobel committee after that load of BS.

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 Post subject: Re: Pick Another Place, Please.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 2:55 pm 
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Jeremiah wrote:
If it can't be debated, don't stick it out there.


So, opinions are not allowed here?

I do not believe there was an attempt to debate or discuss the issues presented in the OP. I suspect that a separate thread was referenced in an inaccurate manner in order to discredit the poster and not deal with the content. I suspect that might be because of an assumption of political leanings.


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 Post subject: Re: Pick Another Place, Please.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:12 pm 
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Traveler wrote:
Jeremiah wrote:
If it can't be debated, don't stick it out there.


So, opinions are not allowed here?

I do not believe there was an attempt to debate or discuss the issues presented in the OP. I suspect that a separate thread was referenced in an inaccurate manner in order to discredit the poster and not deal with the content. I suspect that might be because of an assumption of political leanings.


Really?

I don't recall anyone stating that opinions weren't allowed here. Just don't be surprised if someone disagrees with you. If you can't handle disagreement, you're probably in the wrong place. :)

The OP suggested that the government might restrict the Muslim group in question from building their community center/mosque in the location they wish. It further went off on some tangent about a religion espousing cannibalism, animal torture, et. al. It then suggested the President, as a Muslim, is somehow supporting the construction of this center- though how the President is involved in New York zoning decisions is beyond me.

My response to the OP pertained to the fact that I believe that the poster may well have a point about the bad location of the center, though I disagreed with the reason why. The fact that the poster has, in other threads on this forum, suggested that government regulation was a bad thing, and questioning why the sudden shift in position had occurred on this issue, was an aside. The response then went into why the term "appeasement" was inappropriate, IMNSHO, to the circumstances. I believe I also mentioned that the President, to my knowledge, is not a professing Muslim.

How much more debate/discussion of the points in the OP would you like? :)

This isn't personal- I use the "you" because *you* wrote it. (Though I took pains above to avoid the pronoun.) I apologize if you took personal offense; I assure you none was meant. It's merely that I think the OP and the followup graphic are full of bovine scatology. And that opinion is allowed, too. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Pick Another Place, Please.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:31 pm 
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Jeremiah wrote:
If it can't be debated, don't stick it out there.

Nice graphic, BTW. I lost all respect for the Nobel committee after that load of BS.

The other Nobel Prizes are awarded by Swedish organizations that have some expertise in their fields: Physics, Chemistry, and Economics by the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences, Medicine by the Nobel Assembly at the Karolinska Institutet, Literature by the Swedish Academy.

The Peace Prize is awarded by the committee appointed by the Norwegian legislature.

They've never deserved respect.

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