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 Clayton Cramer on open carry 
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 Post subject: Re: Clayton Cramer on open carry
PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:52 am 
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Nah. What we need to do -- and what we're largely doing -- is persuading people who, for whatever reasons, don't want to carry handguns themselves that it really isn't a problem for them if we do, just as -- to a large extent -- the gay community has, in fact, persuaded folks who really don't want to have sex with people of the same gender that it isn't a problem for them.

I've been using the analogy for many years, and I think it's on point. We, as permit holders, are a minority about the same size, more or less, as gays are, and -- in the long run -- regardless of whether or not they should want to interfere with us, if enough of them want to enough, they could. (Quick thought experiment: what would it take for the Second Amendment to not only be repealed but amended into something banning firearms possession except with explicit government permission?)

Clayton's right in this, at least: some of the open carry stuff does squick out people who aren't our natural enemies. We don't get to decide what does and doesn't squick them out, but we do get to influence it.

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 Post subject: Re: Clayton Cramer on open carry
PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:12 am 
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I'm completely with Andrew on this. Great post.

This Cramer fellow has gone down a notch with me. Approval and encouragement of citizen arms ownership and carry separates the men from the boys. Approval and encouragement of open carry separates the men from the patriots.

Many thanks to those who fought for the carry law we have today, which allows me to open carry my handgun without soccer mom approval. Even if it wasn't their intent to promote open carry, God bless their intents to promote freedom, and allow me the opportunity to choose how I will carry.

In Minnesota I can (and do!) excersize my first and second amendment rights concurrently. There is still something to be said for this particular blue state!

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 Post subject: Re: Clayton Cramer on open carry
PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:58 am 
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DeanC wrote:
Andrew Rothman wrote:
Guess what? "We're here, we're queer; get used to it" worked.

Now if we can just get some hack scientist to come up with "evidence" that we are genetically predisposed at birth to carry handguns we'll really be on to something.


well, what else do you think that opposable thumb is for!?!?

(now that we have the results we want, can somebody help me with the paperwork for the big $$$ government grant to do the study?)

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 Post subject: Re: Clayton Cramer on open carry
PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:23 pm 
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joelr wrote:
... just as -- to a large extent -- the gay community has, in fact, persuaded folks who really don't want to have sex with people of the same gender that it isn't a problem for them.


Tell that to this guy. [nsfw language]
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/33540


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 Post subject: Re: Clayton Cramer on open carry
PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:44 pm 
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gunflint wrote:
Clayton Cramer is one of the founding fathers of second amendment rights in our generation. When he has an opinion, it means something.
It simply means that it's his opinion.

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 Post subject: Andrew on open carry
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 6:54 am 
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I'm siding with Andrew on this in relation to open carry. I'm 47 and I could care less if two guys are making out in public some of that is because I read a lot of sixties sci fi at an impressionable age (thanks RAH) but more of it is because I have gay friends who are out and proud. I don't care what gender people are when they have PDAs, or how many are involved. What I care about is everyone is over the age of consent and that they obviously are consenting, just like with open carry (and I want everyone to keep their guns in their holsters). If Jim and Joe want to open carry at political events sometimes I don't care, nor do I care if they make out at that political event, hell I don't even mind if they do both at the same time. It doesn't affect me and my life. My rights are not being infringed.
From Joel (Quick thought experiment: what would it take for the Second Amendment to not only be repealed but amended into something banning firearms possession except with explicit government permission?) 3/4 of the states or a constitutional convention. We couldn't pass an ERA I think the 2nd is safe barring a really massive change in opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: Clayton Cramer on open carry
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:54 pm 
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i think the president should try out open carry. wouldnt that cause quite a stir. :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Clayton Cramer on open carry
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:14 am 
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jmw55018 wrote:
i think the president should try out open carry. wouldnt that cause quite a stir. :mrgreen:


Let me say here and now that should I ever decide to run for office (I am considering doing it at some level), I would indeed open carry from time to time. I bet I could get viewership of legislative sessions to increase at least for a little while. :D

-Mark


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 Post subject: Re: Clayton Cramer on open carry
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:29 am 
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JimmyC wrote:
gunflint wrote:
Clayton Cramer is one of the founding fathers of second amendment rights in our generation. When he has an opinion, it means something.
It simply means that it's his opinion.

Nah. It means it's the considered opinion of somebody who has demonstrated, over years, his intelligence, wisdom and sagacity on 2A and related issues.

It doesn't -- and shouldn't -- end the discussion. Neither should Professor Olson's similar conclusions, or, for that matter, the somewhat different and more complicated conclusions much lesser lights like me have come to. But it's simply not the case that the opinion of a Clayton Cramer should be wisely discarded as though it's coming from, say, one of the day care kiddies or similar dim bulbs.

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 Post subject: Re: Clayton Cramer on open carry
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:58 am 
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joelr wrote:
JimmyC wrote:
gunflint wrote:
Clayton Cramer is one of the founding fathers of second amendment rights in our generation. When he has an opinion, it means something.
It simply means that it's his opinion.

Nah. It means it's the considered opinion of somebody who has demonstrated, over years, his intelligence, wisdom and sagacity on 2A and related issues.

It doesn't -- and shouldn't -- end the discussion. Neither should Professor Olson's similar conclusions, or, for that matter, the somewhat different and more complicated conclusions much lesser lights like me have come to. But it's simply not the case that the opinion of a Clayton Cramer should be wisely discarded as though it's coming from, say, one of the day care kiddies or similar dim bulbs.


And to be fair, there are plenty of lights who are more in favor of open carry.

I tend to follow the reflection from Ted Nugent's guitar, but that's me. :wink:

-Mark


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 Post subject: Re: Clayton Cramer on open carry
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 10:27 am 
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Oh, sure; I'm not arguing, at all, that Clayton's or Joe's preferences should settle the issue just because they're theirs, any more than I think mine should.

Speaking of which, since I haven't harped on it lately . . . .

Open carry, used appropriately and judiciously, can be a useful form of activism -- all of the plusses to it that the advocates point to are real. But it doesn't become appropriate and judicious just because somebody wants it to be; all of the minuses to it that the opponents point to are real.

So, what to do? Somebody did a long essay on the things you should do first before you consider open carry (other than in very, very limited circumstances(; I'd summarize and modify it to this:

know the law backward and forward; have a good lawyer's number memorized, and be prepared to open your wallet to defend your rights; have multiple recording devices easily available and deployed; dress like a metaphorical ambassador; use a good retention holster; be prepared to instantly make the right decision (lots of luck!) if you feel somebody trying to snatch your gun; use good subcommunication to send the message that you're not dangerous -- through body language, word choice and tone, and props (cute little kids, say) . . . and then hope for the best.

You might get it.

Given my situation, I openly carry routinely at BPR, when conducting HR218 training, and sometimes at open carry events, like the Lake Harriet barbeques. I've gotten into the habit of, from time to time, going to and from the car without a covering garment -- on my block, what I do isn't exactly a secret.

Often people don't notice.

I gave a short presentation to a bunch of women mystery writers at One Upon a Crime, one of my two favorite mystery bookshops in the cities, a couple of years ago. Love the sign on their door, and they're great folks.

I was carrying my then-new S&W 625JM. For those of you who haven't seen it, it's a big honking .45 ACP revolver in stainless; it was sitting in a Mitch Rosen 5JR holster (not exactly deep concealment), under a leather sport coat.
Image

When they started the meeting -- the minutes and some announcements to go over -- I sat down behind at one of the chairs up front of the several rows, turning to the right and taking off my jacket to hang it over the back of the chair. Gary, the owner, caught what I was doing and gave me a grin. He was standing at the back, and rubbed his hands together in a bit of amusement.

After I was introduced, I stood up and talked for a couple of minutes about my background as a writer and gun guy, and was quickly (and appropriately; this sort of thing is more of a led discussion than a lecture) interrupted by a question from one of the two dozen women writers. "I'm kind of confused -- do we have a concealed carry law in Minnesota, or not?"

I explained the law, briefly, and went into a short bit on concealement and such, and then said, "But the truth is that a lot of folks just don't notice."

Skeptical looks all around.

"For example -- hands, please -- how many of you noticed that I've got a big honking revolver on my right hip?"

The only non-gasp came from Felicia, who was sitting out in the audience.

From one of the writers: "Is it . . . loaded?"

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 Post subject: Re: Clayton Cramer on open carry
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 3:15 pm 
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joelr wrote:
From one of the writers: "Is it . . . loaded?"



:lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Clayton Cramer on open carry
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 3:25 pm 
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joelr wrote:
From one of the writers: "Is it . . . loaded?"

There is very little in the world that is more useless than an unloaded gun.

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 Post subject: Re: Clayton Cramer on open carry
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 3:31 pm 
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It was, of course. One of the many nice things about moon clips is that they make it very easy to unload a revolver, and keep the rounds together so that they can be put back where they belong when you're done letting somebody handle the gun. (Yes, I did, after a quick discussion of where the safe direction was, and why we still use a safe direction when handling an unloaded gun.)

It all went just fine.

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